Jimbo
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There is one draw back to an unweighted lottery. Right now members trying to get on-line at 7am and register and your chances being real good (about 100%) if the system doesn’t crash. There are about 2000 members right now who want a membership, but many can’t or won’t get up at 6am to do it. Now if we go to a unweighted lottery there will not just be 2000 trying to get 1000 memberships, there will probably be more than 3000 trying to get this LAP membership. Why an increase? Because it takes no real effort. You will have days to enter the lottery. You do it anytime you want to during many days. So the chances of any one person getting an LAP membership will now be no better than 1 in 3. Think of that !!! You will go from almost a sure deal to a 1 in 3 chance or worse.
Weighting because of volunteer serve service seems like a good idea. Except if everyone knows that we will have 100s, maybe even 1000s showing up for stockings. When we really only need about 60 per truck. Right now the only other thing is TroutFest, Trout Youth Camp(already too many volunteers) and the occasional independent clean-up(which are never greatly attended by the way and needs more support). The point being if it is known that volunteering will be you bonus points towards earning a better spot in the lottery, too many will show up for these events, more than we can use or manage. So volunteering while very necessary to support our efforts would end up being,… we signed up, but because there were so many we were sent home and didn’t do any real work. Do you still give those who didn’t work bonus points? Will people start fighting over the only spots we have to volunteer?
There is also the possibiltiy of a hybrid, some open, some lottery. Who knows? I do know there will be more discussion on the board about handling this enrollment into LAP. I also suspect there will be another survey of membership coming soon to get their opinions of all matters. Stay tuned, the board is listening, and we are trying our best to respond to the problems we have met.
For now we have scheduled Tuesday noon for sign-up, that is if the transfer to yet another server works.
Jimbo
There is one thing we all agree on,… the system we used should not have crashed. It was tested and passed. Now I don’t know diddle about computers and softwear and how they work, so I am no help in offering solutions. If it had not crashed I suspect there would be a lot less criticism of the way LAP registering is handled.
A lottery has been talked about. There is a problem though with a lottery system. That is there could become a black market (high demend and limited supply) in which the winner’s would sell their badges and passes to the highest bidder. The way the system runs now relies on the honor system to a large degree, being the person registering for LAP is the one who will use it and obey the rules. There is no real check after the sale to see if those who won the lotto and registered will actually be the person/s who use these LAP memberships. That could lead to a whole lot of violations, mad lease owners, and further loss of lease sites.
There has also been a split system talked about where a certain number is sold under open enrollment and then a portion sold via lottery (with the same problems, but maybe to a lesser degree because of limited lotto numbers).
The real problem is limited LAP access to the river. If we had twice as many LAP sites we could sell more memberships and have less complaining. So no matter how you split the apple, it’s just one apple. And remember the primary purpose of the LAP is not so a bunch of anglers have easy access to much of the river. That’s real nice and all, but the primary purpose of the LAP is to generate enough money so GRTU can agressively stock the river. And that is what we all want, a bunch of nice sized Trout in th river that we can catch and release. You and I can get to them wading from public sites or floating the river like many do already. If I don’t get a LAP membership it won’t be as easy to access, but I also won’t blame everyone and the system in place for not getting one. Back in the 70’s when I started fishing for Texas Trout in the Guadalupe, I parked at Rio and waded from there up to Whitewater and down to Little Ponderosa. I was just a broke hippie with just enough money to buy a few flys and keep me in tippet. I was real happy back then, and I can be happy doing it the same way again.
Jimbo
Really? Sign up in person ?
Back in th day when we had in person sign up the membership numbers were much lower. I can remember when we couldn’t even sell 500 memberships. Those days are gone. I would say if membership was unlimited we would sell somewhere around 2500-3000 and that’s way too many.
OK I’ll bite. Let’s look at what you suggest in today’s world. So is there going to be one site for the entire state of Texas? Or multiple sites across the State ? And what sites can handle parking about 500 cars or more for an extended period of time while people stand in line, maybe for days? How will you allowcate the number of memberships each site is allowed to sell? Who are you going to get to man these in person sites? Do you remember trying to get concert tickets before sales went on-line. Lines would form a week before the sale date of big concerts. What will be the cut-off for the earliest you can get in line? Can you imagine the fights that will start at the back of the line for the last few memberships?
I just don’t think this is possible and still result in a better outcome. You are just worried you won’t get your precious LAP membership. The answer is many, including myself, someone who has dedicated 20+ years to the GRTU Board, over 10 years as V P of Fisheries, may not get an LAP membership because so many people want to join. On Tuesday I will be working on a real estate deal that can not be canceled. So you cam imagine my chances at getting a membership this year? AND I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT ANYTHING !!!! I’m going to be 69 in a week and without membership I will still be fishing the Guadalupe a lot this season. I’ll be using public sites, pay to park, and wading where I can. We can’t have one group of individuals take priority over another because of seniority, past volunteer work, years in the LAP, or other categories, and still be the open Non-Profit CONSERVATION Organization that we are.
Jimbo
Will do….
Jimbo
Getting to fish with Alex and JC sounds like my idea of fun…. I’m in…. PM sent JC.
Jimbo
Thanks Alex. I think I could learn a bunch from you and JC.
I like you already Martin !!!
Jimbo
Sounds good Trey.
Jimbo
Most years you will have early success with streamers like: wooly buggers, mop flys, slumpbusters, etc. Also egg and San Juan worms seem especially effective. Later on general nymph patterns starting with; Jimmy Legs, Pheasant Tails, Hare’s Ear, Prince, Dave’s Red Squirrel, Coppr Johns. And finally the small stuff: zebra, swimming BWO, Top Secret Midge, WD 40, Barr’s Emerger, Serendipity, Darth Baetis, Rainbow Warrior, Frenchie, really almost anything small 18-24 especially with an emergent wing. If your czech nymphing then: jig flys and Buzzers, Perdigon, Tactical Biot, Tactical Hotspot, all in a zillion color combinations. And if your lucky you see some rising fish to cast drys to….
That area above the dam opens on July 1st to fishing I think, so access is extremely limited. I’ve always been there the first weeks of July most years to do my fishing. I’ve caught some fish to 16″ there but most were smaller averaging 8-12″. But there were some very colotful Cutthroats there. Below the dam is a mixture of everything: Rainbows, Cutbows, Cutts, Browns, and Brookies.
Jimbo
Maybe it’s time for members to start buying lots on the Guadalupe there. At least with members owning some of the lots we could encourage others in the subdivision the proper stewardship of the water and the Fishery. I think I will look into it myself….
Jimbo
Did you fish above or below the dam/upstreambarrier? The story is they have been in the middle of a restoration program for some time to make everything above the dam 100% Rio Grande Cutthroats. About 4 or 5 years ago they removed all fish they could above the dam and then rotenoned to stream. They thought initially they got them all, but apparently they missed a few brookies and even when they reintroduced Rio Grande Cutthroats the Brookies population came back too. So after some time they closed the fishery and killed the stream again. I believe the 2nd re-stocking efforts were last summer (or summer before last). I haven’t fished Rio Costilla since about 3 years ago. That was a time after the first attempt at removal and re-stocking. A stream monitor came along and asked questions about what we had caught. I had caught several brookies in addition to the Cutthroats. He was in disbelief, before I showed him the pictures. He took some notes including my contact imformation. I hope they accomplished their goals last time to make this what it should be above the dam, 100% pure Rio Grande Cutthroats.
Jimbo
I have done my best to explain why this year’s LAP is the way it is and the rational behind those decisions. We are in the final days of roll out of these decisions. We have made many changes in our website and how the registration process will perform. There should be no problems with this year’s registration process.
As far as this years stocking goes, the hatcheries are feeling the effects of COVID and the Rainbows and Browns we use for stocking will be different this season. We will have 4 full loads of Rainbows with a possible 5th load. Year to year we see a slight variation in the sizes delivered from the hatcheries. These fish will be a little smaller this year which means numbers stocked will be up. There will be no Browns this year. We are in the process of changing vendors and the size requirement could not be met, so they will be delayed till next year again.
I respect everyone’s opinion about how things should be addressed in the LAP. Demand for membership will probably never be a steady state thing again as it was back before the early 2000’s. There’s no putting the genie back in the bottle. We will do our best to increase lease sites for access. We will do our best to bring to the river quality Trout for all Sportsmen to enjoy. It takes a tremendous amount of effort by all those involved to bring this program to fruition. And those doing the real lifting are not paid a penny and receive no perks for putting in the 100s of hours it requires to produce this program. If you want to get involved in this effort, then volunteer to join GRTU’s Board of Directors. It is important to concentrate on the real goal of the LAP and that is to pay the $100K it takes to buy Trout and put them in the river today. Without that you have a fishery stocked by TPWD of 8-12″ fish numbering around 24,000 for the season. I don’t know if many here remember the days before GRTU’s effort to stock significant numbers of larger fish in the river, but as one who does, it was quite a dfferent experience back then. Today’s Guadalupe River fishery is considered a quality Trout Fishery and that is something we can all be thankful.
Jimbo
You can still sign up on GRTU’s website and not sign up for the LAP. If you want to volunteer, you still can. Just e-mail Boards Members of the respective chairs that you are interested donating your time.
Jimbo
We have never had 1000 members in the LAP. The most we ever had was last year and that number was 950 all toll. We tried to cap last year’s membership to 850 (which was an increase from the previous and all previous years), but because of the site crashing, and many missing the notice for registration we doled out another 100 to calm the waters.
Jimbo
Increasing membership will allow that many more people to join, it does nothing for crowding and we know that.
As far as violations go you’d think that a great majority would be new anglers not understanding the rules. In fact most serious violations I dealt with were verteran members who knew the rules, but knew they could likely bend them, and get away with it. A couple of examples: I dealt with, a veteran member who lent his pass to a relative (which is strictly prohibited) and then he tried getting himself and 3 additional non-LAP members into L&L with his LAP pass alone. Another member which is the only one I ever have had to permanently exclude from membership, knew he was not supposed to keep any Trout, but he wanted to keep a trophy he caught. I was the witness and talked to him about it, but he told me where I could go…. He’ll never be an LAP member again. Just two examples.
I think you would find that at least 95% of previous LAP members would want to join again if they could. Remember the LAP is selling out in hours not days. That tells me more people want memberships than we sell. And giving a early registration to all previous members would exclude all but a few new members. Even if we limited an early registration to a certain number of previous members, then the other previous members would likely cry foul.
The number you receive as a result of registration does not necessarily reflect the order in which you registration was logged. I signed up last year in the first few minutes of registration and my number was 611.
I know you are well intentioned. I also know many of you just want to have your membership and your friends to have their memberships and are worried that: 1) you won’t get your LAP membership this time, and 2) your friends won’t recieve their’s. Raising the fee will only exclude those who deserve membership as much as you, but may not make enough money to afford higher prices. When I started fishing the Guadalupe and I was in College, even though memberships back then were cheap, there were years I didn’t have the extra cash to buy one. We are a non-profit organization and by law must spend all the money’s we take in, in a timely fashion (with some reserves allowed). If we charged $500 per membership all we would do is exclude younger members who don’t have that kind of extra cash laying around. We would still sell out an number of memberships we offered. It would just skew the membership to wealther anglers.(and as we know wealth does not guarantee good behavior) And remember we are trying to bring in more young people to GRTU/TU so there will people who avocate, volunteer, and want to protect the future of cold water fisheries.
There is no way to have this limited resource provide enough memberships for all who want one. More lease sites will help, but we will never have sites/room to sell memberships to everyone who wants one. I would guess if membership was unlimited, we would sell over 2000 and that is a crazy number. We want to sell as many as is reasonable, but that means limiting memberships, so some will not get their memberships, and have to use public access. Thus with limited LAP memberships we can sell, a growing number of members in GRTU/TU, special programs encouraging young people and women, the only fair thing is to give all the membership an equal chance. Therefore there can’t be preconditions for existing members (or volunteers or Board Members) getting early registration. That would lead LAP membership to start looking even more grey and male.
Jimbo
